The fact that I love looking at anime’s history should be no secret to anyone who’s kept up with this blog since its inception. I’ll watch shows new and old in a desire to understand better anime’s history. At some point I’ll spout facts about some show that aired 30 years ago and the effect it had on the industry and the fans, but then I’ll take a step back when I realize that as hard as I argue about the strength and influence of a show 30 years old, the fact that I was not alive 30 years ago means that my words lack personal involvement. I can watch Evangelion. I can read about how significant it is to Japan from the words of a Japanese person intimately familiar with it and its effects. And yet, I was not actually there.
“You had to be there” is a phrase which implies that the idea that hindsight or observation from the rails of history cannot accurately convey the totality of an experience. If someone posts a video of the Otakon 2008 JAM Project concert on Youtube, and doesn’t think much of it, I’d probably say the same thing. The problem here however is that when I’m deep inside the fandom, when I’m keeping up with shows as they come out and experiencing things firsthand, I feel it difficult to step back and simply observe. The classic example as it relates to me is that while I can talk about my experience living in Japan, I cannot talk about anything i did not do there. I can relate my personal feelings on a topic, having seen what I’ve seen first-hand, but the scope can seem narrow. Sure I can talk to friends and friends of friends and ask online about something going on right now, but it’s hard to get any indication of what’s actually going on.
And yet, when people talk about the anime of year’s past, the information seems most real when it is relied by the people who were knee-deep in it. Their words and stories are fueled by recollections of their own emotional involvement. At the same time, it’s difficult to actually get an accurate image. I guess it’s the task of those of us observing from afar to piece together various sources into something resembling a sensible answer. Still, I can’t help but feel that doing so detracts from the authenticity of my voice.
How does one argue about an anime from 30 years ago with a person who watched that show 30 years ago?
OGIUE MANIAX 
I don’t know.
Sometimes the people just get it. I talked shop with kids almost half my age and they get the old stuff I watched while I was following the scene. There’s mutual understanding.
But I guess the difference is trying to go beyond the show and get some context from the times. That you just had to be there.
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Well, first, is the point to argue? You have some recent insight that conflicts with ‘set knowledge’ someone has from back in the day? Because you gotta remember, there’s a difference between opinion (this show ROCKED and that show SUCKED) and facts (this show came out in 1982).
And we old timers do have our share of imbedded mis-information with ignorance just as vast and deep as the most newly minted AmeriOtaku. :)
I mean, seriously, I know people to this day that are CONVINCED that Gundam’s Bright Noah is British, because of a person describing him as having a ‘British-like reserve in his manners’ in the C/Fo magazine, and in classic ‘telephone game’ style that morphed and mutated into pseudo-fact.
So, what’s the deal? what’s the beef?
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Steve:
I use the term “argue” loosely. Debate, discuss, take your pick. There’s nothing in particular, and if you want to know, the thought’s been there a while but I was reminded about it by a recent discussion not about anime but about food. It just brought this back into my mind.
Going off of your Bright Noah example, let’s use First Gundam. We know for a fact that First Gundam is one of the most influential anime ever, inspiring an entire sub-genre and introducing ideas which would be refined, reformulated, and even contradicted over the years.
Now let’s say someone unfamiliar with this decides to watch and just sees how old and cliche (as of today’s standards) the ideas are. They ask what’s so special about it. So you explain all of the things above, how it just did something unexpected. At the same time, you yourself (and I’m using a hypothetical you, I don’t know how old you actually are) were not actually part of the crowd that would have been wowed by First Gundam. You were not among those kids who grew up watching Combattler V and Mechander Robo. While you can look at anime’s timeline and see the influence First Gundam had, it’s not the same kind of enjoyment one could get from being there to be shocked by it in the first place. It becomes about you talking about how it was a huge impact to others, but not to yourself, while the person is reacting to the show on a more personal, immediate level.
Not that there’s anything wrong with either position. It’s more that sometimes I feel like it’s difficult to talk from the point of view of the outsider to someone who doesn’t want that point of view, or to be the insider and try to convince someone from outside about the merit and impact of today’s anime.
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hmmmmm.
Well, I’m old, I was watching this stuff…dang, there’s that hitch agan. I got hooked in ’79 with Star Blazers but it wasn’t until ’82 that my first raw Japanese stuff came into my hands, so let’s just call it “been in the life since the ’80s”, ok?
I have to be honest, there’s just not much at all that’s come out in the last decade that has really excited me, pleased me. Mostly because it all seems so…what, self-referential? built with a ‘pick your cliche’ set? It all seems so bleah.
We’ll keep going with Gundam. I have a totally different POV on it, in that it’s really not that big an evolution from the ‘super robot’ shows as many think, and in fact it’s no different than Zambot 3 or Combattler V. If one is searching for the true start of the ‘real robot’ genre it starts with Dougram.
Which means the father of the real robot revolution is NOT Tomino, it’s Ryosuke Takahashi.
You can imagine that doesn’t make me too popular in some circles :)
Now, to be fair, Tomino DID inject all the heavy drama and angst and high bodycounts, if he is to be credited for anything I would say making the characters real, but watch and see someone point out it was a team of writers…
If you want to talk about impact, everything goes back to Space Battleship Yamato. I mean it, I’m serious, it’s being proven in so many ways. I hope you’ll take the time to go to Starblazers.com and look at the massive work Tim Eldred has been doing on ‘prime source’ research and it’s just astonishing how many things we take for granted today DIDN’T EXIST until the Yamato Boom. Art books? didn’t exist. soundtrack albums? didn’t exist. marketing a show after it had aired? didn’t happen. It all goes back to Yamato.
and maybe taking a look on how fans in Japan were a part of the whole thing, how they got into the system log before the ‘otaku no video’ idea of the fans who ended up working on Macross, it was all going on in the ’70s.
Only they didn’t brag about it and feel all self-important, they just knuckled down and got to work. ;)
but maybe point some of those people over to the Starblazers site and those articles of the boomtown heady days of youth. Maybe that will recreate some of the ‘you had to be there’ that you seek.
and maybe I am full of poop :)
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As the old saying goes (and if anyone remembers who said this I would be eternally grateful) Nostalgia is fine as long as remember with eyes wide open.
I think in part you are dismissing your ability to be impartial as well. The old timers have a wealth of experience that I would never discount. The ability to know the feeling that you got and the time that surrounded a premier of a show is invaluable. That gives old timers a unique and important insight into the modern anime landscape and how we should analyze anime as a whole.
The problem is it is almost impossible to look back untainted if you experienced something. Sometimes you need someone with no direct investment in the subject to analyst the topic to get a unbiased opinion. The latest AWO reminded that Bubblegum Crisis is surely not as good as most 80s kids remember it but it still hold a special place in my heart and the heart of many other anime fans. Heck Narutaki HATES HATES HATES Bubblegum Crisis for all the right reason that so many (myself included) gloss over.
I and others try to divorce themselves from their prejudges and rose tinted memories when discussing anime but I think it is unavoidable. So I feel you need the ‘you had to be there’ people as well as the “I wasn’t there but here is what I think” view points. Don’t discount either as a valuable tool. I feel only with that give and take to get get close to the truth.
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So what about us mid-timers? Older than the youngins with their easy internet digisubs, but still not as old as the really oldtimers?
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wow, wow, wow, wait, am I even more of an ass than usual?
Is the core issue that you’re a ‘new’ fan with an ‘old’ soul, and you’re running into the problem of your peer group wondering what’s wrong with you and the Old Schoolers you run into saying ‘gitouddahere, kid, you can’t POSSIBLY know what we’re about’?
How the hell did I miss that, if that’s the case? I apologize for my being less then ept! Inept even!
Because I’ve known a number of fans like that, and they’ve all been cool people.
It’s like being 12 and discussing politics with a group of adults. Sometimes the kid is a poser pure and simple, but there are times you find really smart, well read and intelligent people, and being an ‘old soul’ fan is like that. You’ll never get your peer group to understand because…well, that’s just the way it is. But the old school fans, yeah, you’ll get admission into the ‘club’, and the internet is the saving grace, because as we all know, on the internet nobody knows you’re really a dog named Ralph, pretending to be a catgirl… :)
And I don’t think I’m making any sense at all anymore….
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It really, for me at least, has nothing to do with not being able to join the Old Guard or anything like that.
The dilemma, as it were, is that when I see someone talk from the perspective of having been there (whatever or whenever “there” is), I can feel a level of authenticity in their voice, where they’re not just reciting from other sources. But then when I do the same for the here and now and the time in which I’ve been a fan and try to speak from my own experience, I realize just how limited that can be, how little of the picture it paints beyond myself. Not that I expect to do otherwise.
It’s like I’m checking to see if the grass really is greener on the other side by trying to grow the same type of grass on my own lawn, only to realize that it’s just grass.
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As someone who tends to be in the “someone who wasn’t there” crowd with some stuff, I found the best thing to do is listen to the experiences of people that have been there, and see if there’s anyway to relate it to how I feel at the moment. If not, it’s good information to learn and find out how things were “back then”. If it is, then that’s a nice connection to make in spirit at least. I see either way as a win. :P
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So Steve, say you’re a new guy who really likes old school stuff, but just happens to be a terrible lolicon. Do they still let you in?
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Wildarms:
NO NO NO a THOUSAND TIMES NO!
There’s…um….this door out back, and if you knock…
I mean.. :)
Oh, come on, you know that the purpose of ANY group is to find reasons to exclude people! If it’s not Lolicon, it’s the MOE cancer. If not MOE, it’s furry. if it’s not furry it’s something so horrible I cannot name it….
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“Psycommunism”
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Yeah, gotta keep them New-Types out. I mean, the chicks are usually hot as all get out but man, nothing but trouble.
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