They don’t matter. I don’t care how much you want to see them explored, it does not detract from the ending.
Good to see it all over.
…Unless they make a season 4.
OGIUE MANIAX
Anime & Manga Blog | 50% Anime Analysis, 50% Ogi
They don’t matter. I don’t care how much you want to see them explored, it does not detract from the ending.
Good to see it all over.
…Unless they make a season 4.
OGIUE MANIAX 
C’mon, you gotta admit Lion-Turtle was a bit out of left field. But you’re right…none of it matters because Azula’s fall from grace was epic. They could’ve made Momo defeat the Fire Lord, and I’d still be pleased as hell. Azula’s demise was that brilliant.
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About Azula, my favorite theory was from /co/:
Anonymous 07/19/08(Sat)22:07 No.5110871
>>5110800
Nope. She’s actually still chained up in the courtyard. No one can get close enough to carry her into jail, so she just breathes fire at whoever’s close enough.
KingHavoc !!jtQXUhFGp59 07/19/08(Sat)22:08 No.5110889
>>5110871
They throw food at her every so often.
Anonymous 07/19/08(Sat)22:10 No.5110936
>>5110889
“Hey, wanna go feed Azula?”
“Sure, but I hear they’re charging you for a bag of seeds now.”
“Really? Lame, but oh well. Let’s go!”
And I don’t want a second season of Avatar, I want a new show with a similar budget and quality that’s either mecha or steampunk or both…
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Yeah … the Lion-Turtle .. WTF was that ?
All in all .. things were nicely wrapped up. Does make me wonder when Zuko asked his father where his mother is, if they’ll have another series.
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@Laz: There are a reported three hour-long specials that deal with other things; rumour has it that one of these has to do with Zuko’s search for Ursa.
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Podcaster / Historian Daryl Surat IM’ed me with your inquiry, “One of Avatar’s larger fanbases is the Zuko x Katara fanbase. How is it that in not just this but so many other shows, fangirls seem to gravitate towards the pairings which make no sense and expect them to be canon?”, and I am attempting to not lose my mind while working on a school project, so I decided to humor him.
First off, it’s unfair to say “fangirls”, as if you’re referring to all the fangirls that watch the show. As with any fandom, there are individuals that have separate views that are different from each other, and it’s unfair to group them.
I myself enjoy the idea of Zutara (Zuko x Katara), but I’m sensible about it. I’m not the only exception to the rule, plenty of other fangirls realize that the pairing is not likely going to happen, but the creators of the show seem to enjoy putting out strange hints in that they MAY veer towards a relationship between the 2 of them, but none of the hints are all that strong.
I believe the creators thought it was sort of a fun joke to play, where they would have scenes like Katara having a private moment with Zuko, touching his face and offering to heal his scar, or Katara running up to Zuko and hugging him (which I might add was edited to show immediately after Katara backs away from Aang kissing her, in the season finale trailer shown at New York ComicCon, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMPT4ABolcA) So I think many girls are easily seduced into the idea of Zuko and Katara as a couple, but it seems to be a joke on the end from the creators.
And besides that, most girls would prefer to see them together because Mai, the girl that is supposed to be paired with Zuko took 32 episodes to portray ANY character traits (other than being bored with everything constantly and slightly emo), and Aang is a lot less attractive than Zuko. Zuko is also most girls favorite character, which drives the idea further.
Personally, I think Katara is a much more enjoyable character than Mai, and would rather Zuko have her, since I think he deserves someone that actually has a personality. But like I said, I realized pretty far back that it most likely wasn’t going to happen, but it didn’t stop me from enjoying the idea of the pairing or being hopeful that it might actually happen.
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When I say “fangirls” I’m obviously not referring to every girl who is a fan of the show. That said, I rarely ever hear of male fans who are into Zutara, though I’m sure they exist.
The creators of Avatar are fully aware of that fanbase and have teased at it, but I think it was only after they had heard about it from their fans. They did not plan for it at first (but then again they didn’t plan for Toph being a girl either).
Zuko is actually my favorite character in the show, much to my own surprise, so I can connect with his female fans on that at least that level. The problem, and I say “problem” without actually having any real problem with it, is in the words you gave: “Aang is a lot less attractive than Zuko” and “Katara is a much more enjoyable character than Mai.” If we assume these statements to be true for the sake of argument, it seems like the reasoning boils down to “If only these two were together, then their relationship would be amazing” or “I want to see hot characters get together despite the plot” as if the story should have been moved and manipulated in order to push these two together.
Of course this is a work of fiction, and one can say that the actual canon romances are just as much of a manipulation by the creators.
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These Zutarians are the American fujoshi of the future, huh? It’s like reading Shounen Jump in the 80’s. There are people who literally cried over this, or thought God made it happen because they didn’t live virtuously enough.
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Why can’t Kataang stop degrading Zutara? Quit misportraying us as stupid, crazy, or fanatical. The Kataangers have to rationalize every flaw or problem with the show and insult the opposition in the most inflammatory way possible. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject. The concepts about Zutara are deep, multi-faceted, and complex on many levels so it is hard to summarize. I don’t have the time to make that effort.
It would take a very long discussion. Kataang reduces it to superficialities by using selective editing from some commentary coming from a minority of Zutarians or they dismiss it as cliches when it transcends cliches and actually makes uses of the underlying mature themes, mystic symbols, and characterizations on the show. The main issue is that many people lack the depth, maturity, experience, comprehension of psychology, insight, open mindedness, and empathy to understand Zuko and his arc which really to me was the soul, heart, and conscience of the story. It
was more about initially observing subtle indications that indicated a
compatibility, feeling a natural chemistry, and than later deeply connecting it to the themes of the story about redemption, hope, overcoming ignorance, hatred, divisions, inner turmoil, ying-yang theory, and how two people who initally seem like complete opposites actully are very similar at the core, and etc. They were the most complex, dynamic, intense, and
raw of the characters. You have to go into an in-depth discusson of their various character traits, lives, struggles, changes, what they represent,
and etc..tie into the many uses of symbols of the show and feel it with profound emotion. Those to understand Zutara for the extraordinary and profound philosophy behind it, instead of mislabeling it, understand why
it had such a passionate following. There are many aspects to it. Yes, they
looked hot together but it was a lot more than that. Zutara would have had enhanced the emotion, intensified or explemplified the core values and themes, and made the characters & story grow in remarkable ways.
It is more abtract…what could have been or should have been. A lot of people were displeased with Kataang and Maiko…were naturally and intuitively rooting for Zuko/Katara, Toph/Aang or some other alternative
pairing before even becoming aware of the shipping and fandom bicycles.
I was a Zutarian before I even knew what that was. I didn’t even become aware of it until I was through watching the series. Zutara also had a male following and an older following. For the people who undestand the many aspects, they understand that it would flowed naturally with the characters arc and story, not conflicted and interfered with it like Kataang
or Maiko. Mai symbolized exactly the type of personality Zuko should stay away from and it was counterdevelopmental. It would have been fine as a transitional relationship but in the end she would have outrageously incompatible with Zuko. Zuko was a work in progress and it was his flaws/
dark upbringing that drew him to her. Even when they had more common ground, you see the lack of understanding, respect, and communication.
She may have turned against Azula for his sake but that one moment doesn’t redeem everything else about her. She is still closer to Azula on the personality scale.
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She is cold, selfish, self-absorbed, apathetic, negative, depressive, etc…
I could go on and on. She was destructive to Zuko’s development. She
did not go through a major transformation or process of enlightenment or
reformation. There was no indication of her possessing an inner character
and special soul like Zuko. People refuse to acknowledge how amazing
and exceptional it was for Zuko, the Prince of the Fire Nation, who was
emotionally damaged, brainwashed to the utmost degree by the Fire Nation, expected to uphold an evil legacy that he was taught was the right one, and etc to realize the truth and sacrifice his life to help Aang
restore balance to the world by turning against his people who were deeply corrupted. He posessed a great goodness and raw humanity
that made him see the light. Yes, he was guided to a limited degree by Iroh ( whose misdeeds and life in darkness is much longer than Zuko’s yet
many Kataangers just disregard that and are scornful towards Zuko) but
Iroh realized that Zuko had to discover the truth on his own. There is a reason and psychological explaination for every mistake, vice, wrongdoing, that Zuko makes. On top of that, he has to go through a dramatic metamorphosis in a year and he is only 16 years old. It makes no sense to say Zutara makes no sense. His struggles, pain, and other personality
traits parallels and then eventually coincides with Katara’s, who is the character who as the most depth, compassion, maturity, life experience to understand him…to complete him.
Darly Surat is one very ignorant man and is basing his opinion on the
various bias commentaries by Kataang/Maiko and is just going along with
the ignorant majority who had a lynch mob-mentality towards alternative
pairings. In fact, I have never seen such intolerance towards fanon when most Zutarians understood it wouldn’t happen on the show. It was mainly about potential, what could have been, and what should have been.
My brief summary was just the tip of the iceberg. The staff of the show was always torn with the idea, and I know some of the writers favored Zutara but had to go along with Kataang because of Bryke. Considering the comments from children who cannot even comprehend Zutara or Kataang because alot of them cannot learn to understand or respect Zuko or they are perceptive enough to draw correlations to literature, symbols, or real life..the concept was too ambitious, adult, and complicated from a child’s point of view. I can understand why a child might find it too dark and they want their hero to end up with girl of his dreams. The elements of the canon pairing seemed very simplistic and superficial to me. It interfered with the story and characters on an existential level to a lot of the audience.
The age factor/ lack of aesthetic appeal would cause controversy in itself. A kid with a teenager, and older woman dynamic reeking of Oedipus in animation. I can go on and on about Kataang. It made use of the ultimate cliches and most common cliches we see on shows and in books. Katara
had a mother-big sister-teacher-mentor-protective caretaker, and best friend dynamic with Aang. The two year age difference is incredibly inappropriate in that stage of life. It is between a boy and a girl who we see is blossoming into womanhood not just physically but emotionally, socially, and mentally. There are different kinds of maturity and chemistry.
Aang didn’t have the specific kind of maturity that put him on the same plane as Katara though to be fair he did possess a different kind of maturity that was greater than Katara’s. They did have a deep, meaningful bond but they just didn’t have the right kind of chemistry. They would play off each other better as friends. They were also a family-like unit. The
trust, compassion, and respect is just there from the start, it doesn’t grow or develop. Aang’s so-called love was actually an infatuation with seemed more intense because of their circumstances. With Zuko and Katara,
you see deep connections in their attitudes, reactions, struggles,
personalites, and through the use of symbolism on the show without them even directly interacting. Every exchange is electric and profound. Every interaction is poignant and meaningful. Yes, they did look beautiful together but that is just one aspect. They also displayed a natural chemistry together we never saw with Aang or Mai despite the creators attempt to defuse Zutara. The creators were ingenious enough to both use and defuse Zutara to build romantic intrigue, supense, and drama with their mediocre pairings. The considered pairing Zuko with Katara themselves, it was not just a fandom idea.
Zutara helped anchor Kataang. It also helped anchor the story, it was necessary for Zuko and Katara to connect but they limited it to friendship. Only Katara could have healed Zuko’s heart figuratively and literally, and complete his enlightenment. Zuko would have added a depth, dimension to Katara because he has seen the best and worst life has to offer and they have seen each other in their best and worst. They would have caused each other to grow and would have challenged each other. People compare Zuko to Aang who seems perfect and superior on the surface but people don’t take his upbringing and circumstances into consideration.
Aang and Katara also just lacked chemistry, their dynamic was very imbalanced. I can’t even imagine them as a couple. We saw Zuko and Mai as a couple, they were dsyfunctional and after Zuko’s reformation and self-actualization, they are completely different from each other. It was the polar opposite of Zutara. On the surface, initally, they seem to be the perfect match: Royalty, Fire Nation, etc but you peel off the layers as you follow the story and you see they are a mismatch. Katara would bring out
Aang’s whiny, co-dependence, passive side and he would intensify her
coddling, controlling, dominating side. Toph would have caused Aang
to grow and become stronger without emasculating him. They had more of a natural chemistry and interaction. They have the same sense of humor,
light-heartedness, rambunctioness, as well as other qualities like being
brave, good, prodigies, etc. It is more enthralling to see people from
two different background fall in love by finding common ground. They
are able to complement each other well. The fact that Aang and Toph look adorable together is a bonus. I know some people understand the truth
behind my rant. I wish I had more time to explain these points but there is alot to add to them. I know it has been over a year, came across this page by browsing. I hope some people read my post and that it increased their understanding whether they favor the perspective or not.
I loved the show but it had some issues and there was room for improvement.
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Her initially pushing Aang away felt like a more natural reaction and was in character. You would expect somebody in her postion and her personality to react like that. The attraction was relatively one-sided and it would have been sad, creepy, and pathetic to see Katara return Aang’s interest throughout the show and they were smart to leave it at the very end.
It also seem abrupt and forced. The whole pairing seemed forced and contrived. She was treated like a reward and it felt like she went to him because her feelings for him were manipulated/misdirected and out of duty and obligation. She could never hurt Aang and Aang tends to get what he wants. She loved Aang but wasn’t in love with him, that is a very different thing. What he felt for he was infatuation, not a deep, mature love. The other aspects of their relationship had substance and felt right but it didn’t feel right in a romantic light to a lot of people. Mai is completely wrong for Zuko and realistically from a pyschological perspective neither of the relationships would work out. Enough of my rant. I hope other Zutarians read my post because we have had to endure a lot of abuse from people who can’t understand or tolerate much like the character Zuko.
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I was typing fast and there were many missing or misspelled words. I know most of you understand the basic gist of my words.
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There were a lot of errors but I need to make some important corrections to clarify the message: I hope other Zutarians read my post because we have had to endure a lot of abuse from people who can’t understand or tolerate us much like how they reacted to the character of Zuko who was the most maligned character. He was certaintly not a villain or antagonist and he didn’t fit the anti-hero or bad boy archetypes either. They reduce Zutara to cliches like opposites attract, love-hate tension, star-crossed lovers, or bad boy-good girl when none of those are accurate. They were not opposites, it was about love conquering hate, their destinies were interwined, Katara was not Miss Perfect and Zuko was far from the brooding bad guy because he possessed an inner goodness that created the inner turmoil because he was born into the wrong side. Only he could redeem the fire nation and he had to redeem himself…through that he would help save the world. I also said in my previous posts that Zutara
was more abstract and hypothetical..what could have been or should have been. I also said the creators thought of the idea of Zutara themselves and it was nearly chosen for the show, and it was not just created by fandom. It was always the compelling alternative.
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please never stop posting
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WHOSE RESPONSIBLE THIS?
(I’m sorry, I just had to. )
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Teo, ignore the flamers and spiteful snarks. Kataang dishes out intolerance
and ill will better than anybody else. Extreme, unfounded, and irrational antagonism due to immaturity, ignorance, and inhumanity from the majority who just had such a blind devotion to a vision that had major discrepancies that actually created major blocks from comprehending the themes and characters. There was so much symbolism present and people cannot fathom Zutara because they cannot fathom or accept the essence of Zuko for what he represented and how it intersected with Katara’s personality and storyline. Kataang/Maikos turned this into the ugliest shipping war I have ever seen and were militant to the core while misportraying an insightful minority who was viewing the characters in a deeper way in the worst, most disgraceful way possible.
I LOVED your posts. I could not have said it better. It was so satisfying and gave me a sense of fufillment to see someone actually engage in an accurate and in-depth explanation of Zutara instead of cowering down to such monstrous bashers. I wish there were more of these kind of posts on the Zutarian sites. You are right, Zutara is too complicated to summarize which is why I never bothered. Maiko made no sense at all. She was actually the worst choice of a mate Zuko could have made. I kind of understand why he would run back to her after her so-called noble sacrifice
but realistically he would have eventually realized that she was completely different from him in their basic natures. If they had added more indications of Mai turning into a good, well-adjusted person it might have been more believable. A lot of couplings would have made sense to a certain degree but Zutara is the only one that made use of all of the basic themes and symbolism. The canon couplings had the odd impact of warping
the characters.
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The lion-turtle was also a pathetic deux machina, though I understand that there was a nobility in Aang staying true to his ideals of pacifism
though taking away Ozai’s firebending powers would not restore balance to the world.
Realistically, I think Zuko would dump Mai after a few months after realizing that she lacks the psychological, emotional, and moral depth to understand why the Fire Nation’s tyranny and philosophies were immoral and destructive to the world. You were also right about Mai about not understanding Zuko or truly caring about anything other than herself.
It was less icky than Kataang but you did feel the stiffness/lack of chemistry during their important conversation about why Zuko had to do what he did for the sake of the world. Then vindictive Mai would turn against him and join forces in an attempted coup along with other fire nation members. With Aang and Katara, it would take longer, maybe a year or so, for them to realize that they are ill-suited as lovers. The awkwardness, imbalanced dynamic, and lack of basic chemistry would become apparant. Aang realizes this “romance” is ruining a solid friendship and familial bond. Katara is the sister/mom he never had and is his best friend. They miss how things used to be between them. I think to a certain degree maybe it was necessary for Aang to explore his longtime infatuation and for them to sort out their screwed up feelings for each other.
They amicably split up. During that time, Zuko and Katara who already begun a meeting of minds and path of forgiveness from what we saw in the canon series would increase that by having in-depth discussions of their pasts and mistakes. Zuko would explain why he did what he did in Ba Sing Se. Many fans also don’t understand how that mistake/subplot enhanced the themes of the story and also enhanced the special link between Zuko and Katara instead of breaking it down completely like they wanted. They go off on a journey together to find Ursa (his mom) because
that will intersect with a plot point about restoring harmony to the nations.
They begin to fall in love. That I think is a plausible scenario for a hypothetical Book 4. I know there won’t be a Book 4. Thank you Teo for your posts.
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I’ve never watched Avatar. I just never, ever want you two crazy diamonds to stop shining.
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Neither of us are crazy. It is a response to the craziness and utter lack of civility and understanding many people had to deal with for over 3 years.
For the people who bothered to analyze and observe the posts/attitude regarding Avatar, it was horribly upsetting to see Zutarians slandered nonstop by the incredibly offensive majority whose magnitude of contempt towards a different, more deeper outlook on the show I can’t wrap my mind around. Meaning I can’t wrap my mind around the poisonous hate
that Kataang imposed on Zutara only to misportray us as the deviant and out of control ones. The people who have done the same amount of research and analysis regarding Avatar understand what I am talking about. It was emotionally abusive. I have never seen such acrimony and intolerance during shipping. A lot of people leaned towards other pairings other than canon before awareness of any shipping. The pairings created such glaring holes in the show that clashed with the other elements of the series. Zutara would have moved the characters and plot forward, not
manipulated it, in fact the canon couplings felt very contrived and manipulated. Where the characters like Katara end up doing and saying things they wouldn’t naturally do. Many girls identified with her and her position. I know I am being obsessive but the opposition is carrying the obsession for many people forward because they continue to incessantly mock other sides of the fanbase on many sites including this one.
I wish more people like Teo had submitted in posts during those years.
I hope Daryl Surat reads this page because Teo gave the best summary.
It was also incredibly chauvinistic and ugly to treat all of the Zutarians
as giddy fangirls who blindly ship a couple. There was nothing blind about it and it made perfect sense which flowed wonderfully with the series.
I know a lot of guys who were Zutarians. It went beyond appearances.
It represented something much deeper than a ship and there was an actual philosophy of humanism behind it.
Kataang was suffocating. They really crossed the line. Maybe I am still hot and bothered by this because I don’t like to see any minority being wrongly depicted and insulted all of the time. I only posted a couple of comments about this over the years because Kataang truly scared me with their mode of conduct. The problem was the kind of people who would make the most intelligent arguments for Zutara are the kind of people who usually avoid blogging. A lot of Zutarians came in after the fact. Meaning, they were older people who became Avatards after the series original run was over. They happen to catch a glimpse of the show or hear about it and tune into it later. They didn’t tune into it originally because they are the kinds of people who usually don’t watch Nick shows or Nicktoons. Most of the commentating we did see were younger Zutarians who might have shipped it for superficial reasons or couldn’t properly explain why.
Leave us alone Sub. I cannot put with these flamers anymore. We actually
wrote about and studied Avatar in our psychology class recently. The show deals with many concepts and attitudes that are relevant to our culture and society. It also deals with theories about relationships and compatibility. The debates about the show still continue to rage on because Kataang still continues to be on the offensive even when the other sides don’t provoke any arguments. The movie is coming out soon which is why it has become a hot topic on the web again.
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You are so right! This is among the best discussions of Zutara I have ever read. Mai was a sociopath. She was completely wrong for Zuko who always had a goodness inside of him. He went through a process of enlightenment because he was born into the wrong side. He was behaving
accordingly to what he was raised to believe. He was raised on a diet of hate, rage, and all of the wrong kinds of behaviors. His entire menality was twisted by the Fire Nation and by his own conviction, through his own courage he was able to recognize what was right for him and the world.
Katara was the best match for him. The parallels in their behavior, experiences, struggles, and characteristics were astounding. People must very blind or biased not to see or feel it at all. The canon couples did ironically create a block from understanding Zuko and the main values of the story. Aang and Katara, it is more complicated and subjective to explain why many people didn’t feel that pairing. There was a feeling of offness and wrongness to their interactions and conversations that made me think they wouldn’t make a good couple romantically but a very dynamic duo in terms of friendship. The age was an issue but it was also how her personality catered to Aang’s in the wrong way, at least in terms of what is needed in a good romance. They complemented and contrasted each other in an way that would be considered odd as a couple.
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They created this epic and unique character with Zuko who didn’t fit any of the cliches we have ever seen in cinema or literature so it is stupid for Kataang to refer as Zutara as cliched when the truth is that Kataang was very cliched. I also concur that Aang and Katara would have sent each other in a state of arrested development and into a state of stagnancy.
The thing with Katara, is that Aang seemed to have triggered her biological clock and it was so sick seeing her just suddenly forced into overcoming her platonic, sisterly, and motherly feelings to appease Aang.
It was always about her making Aang happy and satisfying her needs
What about her needs? It was love, just not the right kind. I felt very sorry for both Zuko and Katara. Bryke chose to not give Zuko the respect he deserved so that is why half of the audience chose not to give him that same respect. He could have died while he was redeeming himself and they still would trashed him for his past. They basically implied that because of his past, he deserved nothing better than a cold-hearted, apathetic, and self-absorbed whore. It was almost like they only viewed
Zuko as a secondary character with a B storyline to only anchor Aang’s
main story. The show was too Aang-centric to the detriment of the other characters. Many of us learned to care about all of the characters especially Zuko and Katara who had the most inner turmoil, angst, and
torment. Toph would have been so great for Aang. I really wanted to see Toph find love. An older Toph also would have made a great match for Zuko.
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I meant it was always about satisfying his needs, not hers. Very one-sided and it didn’t progress much unlike what the Kataangers claimed. I generally don’t like May-December romances between men and women.
I don’t want them to start a trend of kiddie May-December affairs. I liked Aang a lot but I didn’t feel the same connection to him. He was your standard hero and he felt like a caricature in comparison to the other characters like Zuko, Katara, Sokka, Toph who felt more real. He was at a stage where didn’t even need a girlfriend. Katara was kind of all-encompassing figure to him: his mother , sister, best friend, and lover. Ew.
It is also interesting how we never hear Zuko say I love you to Mai or have Katara say I love you to Aang. It would have felt fake and the audience would have felt it despite their biases. The most romantic and fulfilling moment was between Zuko and Katara. You finally feel their development come into full circle when they interact at the end to fight off Azula. I think they lost out on their real soulmate.
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Zutara is the most wrongly maligned, misunderstood, and misportrayed
viewpoint regarding a tv show. Canon setups that began as misguided/immature turned into a form of evil which ironically went against the themes, messages, values, symbols, and character growth that the show promoted. Instead it incited intolerance, lack of deeper undestanding, and increased everything negative that the show preached against. Kataang/Maiko had no limits or integrity and it just proves what a sad state our society is in that most people lack the depth of character,
attitude, emotion, and perspective to even understand or at least tolerate
the humanity behind Zutara. The level of deceit, distortion, manipulation,
contradiction and so many other vile uses of misportrayal went to the ultimate level. Then the wrongly villified minority doesn’t have the right to be angry or upset. It went beyond above the couples of Kataang/Maiko itself, it was about the impact of such wrong choices.
Zutara was too ambitious for a children’s show but it made no sense to contradict or downplay Zuko’s character development by having him end up with Mai. People who disliked the pairing are viewing it from personality theory and what kind of attitude each character represented. The hate towards Zuko perfectly exemplifies how most people are too shallow, ignorant, and closeminded to fully embrace that arc. Of course, Zutara wouldn’t make sense to them. I agree with what the rest of you said.
Even reading a lot of the posts from people who claimed to be Zutarians was very frustrating because they didn’t support it for the right reasons or there were better/deeper reasons they seemed to miss out on. It is subversive and very complex which makes it a challenge to fully explain.
You were also perceptive in pointing out that most of the fanbase is older
and it was not well-represented on the internet because a lot of those kinds of people wouldn’t bother posting during the internet or became
deeply interested in Avatar later on after the shipping wars are over.
I also noticed that a lot of the great Zutarian essays have been deleted, removed, or you cannot access them anymore so you mostly just see
the Kataang/Maiko responses and how they distort it. Zutara came from canon elements and the canon pairings not only makes no use of those significant elements but actually goes against it.
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Every Zutarian should read this. As for the opposition, it doesn’t matter
how well you explain it they will give you the same kind of sick response.
I was also doing research and ran across many vile pages condemning something they cannot or do not want to understand. The canon was unfulfilling and we didn’t get a resolution/payoff. Anybody who is accurately and realistically thinking about what the characters’ futures
would and how it would be shaped by their choice of mates would see a future of distress, turmoil, and conflict. There was a great disconnect between the characterizations, reality, and the romances. Kataang/Maiko
closed their hearts and minds to Zuko so they couldn’t understand Zutara
which is reflective of deeper issues in their judgement and personalities.
It is representative of a greater problem. Describing Kataang as having
a lynch mob-mentality was a great way of describing it. I can’t pretend there weren’t Zutarians who behaved liked that but it was to a much lesser degree and it was mostly a response to what we had to endure when were not doing anything wrong. I guess I have a strong reaction because I’m reading into all of this from a wider perspective and the sociological consequences of this because people will apply the same
kinds of attitudes towards other philosophies and other perspectives
regarding personality.
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I’m suspecting a highly erudite sock drawer has invaded the blog…
On that tangent: I’m a bit of a fan of Urusei Yatsura, and I’m a big supporter of a non-canon relationship (Ryuunosuke/Shinobu), but at the very least I don’t really care about how canon screwed that ship up, less than finding people who like the ship along with me.
The whole Zutara shipping war thing reminds me of a train that’s still spinning it’s wheels long after the train itself has derailed, drove straight through three buildings and landed on it’s side, whilst somebody blindly throws more coal into the fire.
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Robert Kelly, you are a perfect example of why Zutara has remained fierce, passionate, and strong. If you had done any research instead of jumping on a bandwagon that gets perverse pleasure in attacking something they don’t understand while increasing the level of antagonism and flaming towards something that was outrageously misportrayed and is still being
debased. Did you really read or understand the truth behind the posts?
Everybody else explained this in a concise manner. It was reacting to what that canon created and it is still thriving. It was destructive and wrong.
There is nothing blind about it, they explained the basis for it. You are also going to pretend it was Zutara, not the canon who turned it into a war.
Have you bother to assess or analyze the responses made over the years?
These people are rightfully responding to that.
You are no different from any foul flamer or blind basher. Then you pretend you don’t care, are apathetic, and oblivious to all of this when you bothered to post comments just to provoke and offend something that had a negative wide influence. It is not just about ships but there is no point in getting into a deeper discussion with something like you. You don’t even understand the merits of the indignation. Then you
are classless enough to refer to an erudite sock drawer “invading” a blog that was about this topic and label it as a trainwreck. What about the millions of comments that are continuing to this day that are still harassing
and spreading misunderstanding that is all over the internet. Yet the minority who is being villified and misportayed cannot defend themselves or call out the ones who are responsible.
But these are just words to you. You strip the truth, value, meaning, or relevance to what is being said. People like you thrive on hurt especially.
People have the right to get emotional over something they care about especially when it still being wrongly depicted and degraded by the masses. There are so many like you over the internet, you attack the people who care about the topic, and then you mock that by a sense of superior smugness. The same kinds of people who say get a life but they
are pathetic enough to post themselves while adding nothing but negativity to discussions. If you truly didn’t care or was apathetic, you would not have posted a comment. I doubt that you would responded that way to the millions of Kataang/Maikos because they were the majority. You are just a bully. You have no idea what so many people were put through. None of it was necessary.
You are the one who is blindly throwing more coals into the fire. It is about defending the legacy and truth behind a viewpoint. It is okay for people
to attack with no limits but not right for people to defend or explain themselves?
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I think people keep posting and venting about this here because so far it has been one of the few places where we can do this while not having to deal with trashing from Kataang/Maiko because they made a point to invade every discussion while many of us avoided their pages which many made a specific point in spreading hatred and lies about Zutara. I guess people are using this venue as catharsis. You don’t understand what the phenomenon is about, so lay off. The previous posts reflected how much people were hurt by this and yet you were ruthless enough to add more salt to the wounds. Some people have strong feelings and passions regarding how they feel especially when it created a victimization but don’t make people feel crazy or ashamed for responding to that or for trying to explain their opinions. People turned this into personal politics because they used some of the same manuveurs that people use in politics.
I guess many people reached their breaking point with people like you.
So please just leave it alone. I usually ignore people like you. It was the ignoring over the years that made people like you worse. I didn’t want this discussion ending on a foul note. Don’t post unless you have something of substance to offer. I found these discussions kind of therapeutic.
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Go Touchstone! Considering there was a lot of injustice and many forums titled I hate Zutara and the majority displayed an insane contempt because they did not understand the true basis and beauty behind it..I think it is only fair and right that some intelligent people made a good effort to explain it. In fact, the canon was more about sinking ships that made more sense than expressing affection towards their ship. These comments were a reaction to most of the other comments and blogs.
These were excellent rebuttals that should have been posted during the series run. I wish some of these people had operated the blogs. To be fair, Zutara didn’t have good representation on the web and the other side
took full advantage of that. I understand why they might have a different preference but I never understood why they had to be such loathsome creatures. It was just as bad as seeing debates between Democrats and Republicans. The other side kept twisting and twisting it to deny any flaws with the canon.
Zutara has a life of its own. It was about using critical thinking skills and applying it to personalities by using the themes as a basis. I know this is redundant. It was all about soul, emotion, and redemption. Zuko is a representation of aspects of life and people that need to be understood
to achieve real inner wisdom and peace. It was about having the right analysis of the personalities involved. Once you get that, it was logical for people to pair him with Katara who displayed the same basic nature despite their backgrounds. It was all about bridging differences. Another point is that it was about resolving conflict. Zuko and Katara would have gotten along wonderfully once they began to truly understand themselves.
People kept treating it as love/hate or a potentially bickering people when that is implausible and a paradox to what it would be like between them.
While doing that, they would have a better understanding of the world through each other. It would also be a very passionate and mature love.
It was a relationship that would benefitted the world.
I cared about Aang too and her personality didn’t seem right for him in a romantic sense. The number #1 issue for me was chemistry. People have hit on this point well enough already but Mai was not right for Zuko on a deeper level despite appearances. In fact, any women from the Fire Nation would not have been right for Zuko unless Bryke had created a renegade female who had the depth and insight to understand the evil surrounding them and chose to switch sides like Zuko. It was painful to see them end up with wrong people which went against what the show was about.
It was even more painful dealing with people who didn’t comprehend the concept behind Zutara. Some people made a deep mental connection to the story and so they couldn’t tolerate something that had so many flaws and issues. I re-watch Avatar sometimes and I continue to gain more insights. Then it just explodes or implodes when you see the ending. Having them not end up together felt just as contrived as having the canon couplings end up together. I wish Zutara could just co-exist peacefully along with the canon but the canon followers made that impossible with their behavior. Long live Zutara. They keep trying to kill something that may be different but it does not mean it is wrong.
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Blogmaster, please be fair and restore my posts. It is necessary for flamers like Robert Kelly to read it. Danica posted from the same computer at school but she is a separate identity.
It took a lot of effort and time to type that post. Please be ethical and restore it. I don’t think you want to receive any more complaints.
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RESTORE MY POSTS.
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If you’ll notice, I have never deleted any of your comments and have allowed them to appear, even if I disagree with them, unless they were off-topic or on the wrong posts entirely. Deleting relevant comments has never been how Ogiue Maniax rolls.
All it came down to was that I have to actually approve your comments in order for them to appear on the site, and when you post from a new computer (which you have done), I have to approve a new IP.
Your last few comments though have bordered on angry spam so I’m warning you now, calm the hell down.
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Thank you for displaying the posts. I apologize for losing my temper and I know I went overboard. I also apologize to Robert Kelly, I responded too harshly and crossed the line. This site is about analysis and some people actually offered that while providing solid reasons only for it to be cooly mocked without taking what it is responding to in account while it created the effect of it being completely underminded. A minority understand what I was responding to. I was reacting to the entire war in general. Many posts and essays on other sites were wrongfully deleted while the other side got to speak their mind freely while engaging in all sorts of awful tactics. I was in a state of heat over the thousands of comments I analyzed for my research. I felt compelled to stand up for that minority.
What should have been entertaining and insightful fandom involvement got turned into a very nasty war. It was out of character for me to get so angry.
I hope my over-the-top behavior didn’t turn you off from the meaning and substance behind what I and the rest of the researchers said. I personally think the dangling plot threads do take away from the ending and the show. I enjoy reading your perspectives and keep the good work on your site.
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I know what you mean. After years of hideous ridicule and scorn from Kataang, Maiko; it is hard to keep your cool. They managed to make us look very insane or wrong without being able to identify or relate to the foundation of Zutara. We understood Bryke’s vision but it just didn’t correlate or jibe. It was a very immature and limited outlook. I felt very sorry and angry for Zuko at the end. I think they just wanted you to take it for granted that Mai suddenly turns into a supportive, warm, and ideal mate who understands the evils of the fire nation. Zuko always had the world’s best interests at heart and he really felt like capturing the Avatar was honorable. People do give Iroh too much credit for Zuko’s redemption when at the most what he offered was ambiguous spiritual proverbs and gave subtle hints of the right path. I found it easy to empathize with emotionally damaged Zuko and his mistakes made sense to me. We also don’t know at what point Iroh reformed and when he began serving as a quasi-mentor to Zuko. Katara was the right fit for him on many levels and it would be have spectacular to see that personal growth through romance.
There is tons of psychological analysis behind it. I had a couple of posts and essays deleted on other sites from biased Kataangers. They controlled the commentary. What you read from the internet about Zutara and other fanons is very distorted. The lion turtle was very out of left field
and removing Ozai’s firebending was a long way from solving the problem.
Aang and Zuko would have tons of issues and obstacles to rebuilding the world together. I wanted to find out about Zuko’s mother and what roles
the characters would have in the new chapter of their lives. I think the romances wouldn’t last either though those relationships might serve as good starter relationships to open their eyes to who is compatible. My friend made a good argument pointing out that while many viewers saw the parallels by being outside observers, Zuko and Katara did not. The idea
of being more than friends would have seemed crazy to them at the point in time.
I like the idea of their friendship and understanding becoming stronger before a hypothetical romance. I didn’t want Aang’s and Zuko’s interesting friendship to be ruined either. It would play out better if Aang got to explore this emotions and realize having the crush was more interesting than the actual relationship rather than being heartbroken or rejected.
I support the notion that Aang would miss having his best friend and the sister he never had. I think a romance might ruin their pure friendship that
was like affection you have with family. My top three choices for Zuko were
1. Katara 2. Toph ( when she gets older) 3. Jin My top three for Toph was
1. Aang 2. Zuko 3. Sokka For Sokka 1. Suki 2. Toph 3. Ty Lee I only wanted Zuko for Katara though Haru is another plausible option. It would take a long explanation of why Jet would be a mismatch and why he is different from Zuko. Aang, Toph or Onji.
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Zuko’s evolution, mature-self awareness, and meaningful character growth was my favorite part of the story. Katara also went through a similar process in a different context. Some people labeled Zutara as being based on conflict when it was about going through some necessary conflict to find inner strength, empathetic perspectives, and deepen your development. Zuko and Katara would have caused each other to grow and deepen in multiple ways. The whole ideal behind Zutara help me cope with the weak romances in the story and it made the themes so much stronger. Maiko really did seem like a spiteful ship from Bryke. Ha, ha, ha the tortured hot guy gets the lesser woman while ridiculously saintly Aang got to play out some ridiculous fanboy fantasy. I liked Aang better when he wasn’t swooning over Katara. Their interaction outside of the romance setup felt more natural. Zuko needed and deserved better than Mai. The fire nation and the world needed somebody better than that. Mai embodied the type of personality that could ruin Zuko and ruin the salvation of the Fire Nation. She was a nihilist.
As for the dangling plot threads, it was all about wrapping up everything nicely in a neat bow. It would be satisfactory in the minds of children. If it were a different network, they might have gone with Zutara. I know Bryke had originally considered that. Over time, I began to favor other couplings.
I like the potential and philosophy behind Zutara. Though I think Katara
might be too critical, closeminded, judgemental, and self-righteous for Zuko. They have a lot of attributes in common, good and bad. It might lead to constant battle of wills, tempers, and dominance. Katara is *itchy enough to throw Zuko’s painful past in his face. Zuko also needs somebody who is more fun and lighthearted. I became a bigger fan of Zutoph, Zuko and Toph when she reaches an appropriate age. Toph was my favorite character next to Zuko and Iroh. She was far more interesting to view in a romantic context than Katara. Toph would have been a good fit for Zuko, Sokka, and Aang. I watched the episode The Avatar and the Firelord yesterday. I loved the part when Toph trembles and looks at Aang tenderly while she wonders if it is true if some friendships transcend lifetimes. Then Aang holds her hand meaningfully. Though the entire group did hold hands. Toph and Aang had such great natural chemistry. Aang needed somebody who was tough, uncompromising, and blunt. Toph would have made him a man while Katara would trap him in a boy-state forever. This might sound weird, but I always wished they had not made Sokka and Katara siblings.
It was easy for Aang to be saintly considering the love, guidance, and
right friendship he received from numerous sources from a very young age.
He seemed to adjust a little too well to certain tragedies while Zuko & Katara seemed to suffer an ongoing trauma. I liked the idea of Zuko
hooking up with Toph or reuniting with Jin. My second favorite aspect of Avatar was the strong women. Even Azula, the arch villian, who was pure evil was amazing to watch. I also loved her nervous breakdown. Bryke did create some brilliant characters.
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Wow. I don’t have much to add. Why couldn’t people have fought back
like this before the series was over. Zutara was rooted in Zuko’s arc and that is the starting point for understanding Zutara. It was derived from the shows themes and personalities of the characters. Several of you made the powerful point that many rejected or couldn’t fathom the reasoning behind it because they rejected and couldn’t fully empathize with Zuko’s
pain and real personality. Re-reading the commentary about Avatar on the web, that was reflected by a clear majority by Kataaang/Maiko. I don’t blame any of you for blowing a fuse considering how horribly they reacted to everything. Once you remove the block and bias, it becomes clear how Zuko and Katara are profoundly suitable for each other and why it would have made such a powerful storyline. Much of the audience was still stuck in first gear about Zuko because they still kept viewing him in the same
ugly way. You have to understand the psychology behind each character.
Most of my psych friends agree or at least understand this perspective on Avatar. Zuko may have been enlightened but most of society is not.
The show had such deep themes only for it to be thrown out to cater to couples that made matters more simple for children.
What is bizarre, is Bryke’s obsession with Zutara. They use it, mock, and gave mixed commentary indicating that they understand some aspects behind it yet also liked to make statements that fed the flamers reactions. They made frequent references to it in interviews, in DVD commentaries,
in Avatar Extras, and in the various conferences at conventions. Zutara was not the only fanon pairing but it was the only one that was directly referenced. They have a love/hate relationship with Zutara. They hate it because it reveals valid criticisms about the show. I also hate how Kataangers would literally steal statements about Zutara and then reverse
criticisms, I saw so many warped paradoxes. They made a point to downplay or disregard certain aspects about Zuko, Katara, or Aang to act like the pairings were flawless. Mai and Aang came off looking so much better while Zuko, the character who carried the messages and symbolism behind the epic structure was degraded in the worst way. Understanding Zuko would be a benefit for anyone who watches the show. The end still felt like a slap in the face even though it was anticipated. I felt so hollow and empty. There was just a lack of realism. The issues with Kataang went beyond age/appearance but that was an important part because it is not wholesome or cute to pair a 12 year old kid with a 14 year old teenage girl. What scares me is that so many just throw out their understanding of human development or maturation to act like there is no controversy there.
It is not just about the older girl dynamic. In real life, even a 14 yr old boy with a 12 yr girl would spawn revulsion. A year or two difference in that
stage of life is a big deal. They just stupidly treat it as a mere 2 yr difference or that that it is age fundamentalism about wanting the guy to be older in the relationship. A 2 yr difference in that stage of life where the girl is older is multipled twice as much compared to when the guy is older. Their age had a crucial role in Aang and Katara’s interactions, reactions, conversations, and etc. They also really did not have chemistry, but that is matter of opinion. There are so many essays I can write about the show.
I need to mention that the age issue was just one of the many reasons I did not like that couple. Age does matter in certain stages of life. I have
had my nephew and his friends who were around that age when Avatar
first came on tv, develop a warped mentality about what is an appropriate love interest for them. They have taken a serious interest in highschool girls or even college girls when they are still in middle school because they
think it is appropriate because of Avatar. It is not healthy.
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Bless all of you Zutarians and critical thinkers!!! These were good summaries analyzing the essence of Zutara. I don’t have the time to write an essay but I have to say it is bizarre how people rejected or even contradicted the personality parallels, strong symbolism of fire/water, ying/yang theory, foreshadowing, events, plot points, character developments, themes of redemption, and even ignored Zuko’s life trajectory to affirm their enormously flawed pairings while not just rejecting a more logical and extraordinary pairing but to harass/abuse the people who refuse to dumb themselves down for Bryke. Bryke did create a cognitive dissonance for the audience where the deep, complex components could not be processed and interpreted accurately because the romances and large plot holes served as interference. Anybody who engaged in psychoanalysis, emotional analysis, personality analysis,
symbolic analysis, cultural analysis, and life analysis while relating it to real life would see why Zuko and Katara were the most compatible. What was really abhorrent is how many Kataangers act like we had no right to see parallels and links between Zuko and Katara or that it was disrespectful
to point out any obvious issues with Kataang/Maiko. The more intelligent and analytical our rebuttals became; the more ruthless, manipulative, and
ignorant they became. They were canon Nazi’s. I was actually a non-shipper and you might say even an anti-shipper coming into the show.
It was the outrageous incompatiblity and absurdities with Kataang and Maiko that opened my eyes to Zutara. Kataang/Maiko made me realize
what Zuko, Katara needed and deserved in a relationship. You were right,
there was character derailment for Zuko with Mai and Aang becoming idolized and glorified for something they were not. Zutara was the only pairing that touched on every aspect of Avatar and enhanced what the show was all about. I was not looking to find character correlations or
psychological links between Zuko and Katara but they kept appearing and
becoming stronger as the series progressed especially as the audience’s
understanding of Zuko evolved. You can even find evidence with their
stances, reactions, facial expressions, and dialogue. The fact that most of it was not even intentional by Bryke makes it even more intriguing. It would take an essay to address each aspect of Zutara and how it flows wonderfully with each aspect of Avatar. You had people drill a nonsensical bias and a hatred against Zutara right from the beginning. I actually had
a bias against Zutara in the first season because it was misportrayed by the Kataangers. My initial comprehension of it was contradictory.
Then I discovered the true basis and actual reasoning behind it, fell in love with it despite my previous aversion to any kind of shipping. It was the commentary from Kataang/Maiko that made me realize just how destructive of a mentality/viewpoint it created not just to the show but
towards the people who have deeper minds. They also lacked the understanding of certain plot points and Zuko’s reformation, otherwise they would not still say that at the end of the series Zuko and Katara would not get along or act like Zuko was an antagonist. They don’t even acknowledge how Zuko’s environmental, family, and peer influence shaped his life and how amazing it was for him to overcome all of that corruption.
Many of them resented the fact that the Gaang forgave him and let him join the group. Many couldn’t understand why Katara became his greatest
support and comrade in arms at the end which makes me think they did not understand the core traits and magnificent journeys of these two characters. They don’t see the similaritie that he shares with Katara or how it is rational that he relates to her the most. Many of them even continued to dismiss the notion that Zuko would be the one to teach Aang firebending or fail to see why Zuko is an exceptional hero or fail to see why the Gaang not just forgave him but needed Zuko in many ways.
What united Zuko and Katara was much stronger than what divided them.
Those internal divisions would not exist anymore toward the end once they
began to truly understand each other and their circumstances. It was Kataangers who tended to view the entire show in the context of shipping.
Some of them went as far as to say that every moment was about Aang and Katara or that Kataang was the foundation of the show when you
could have easily removed any romance from Avatar and the main values
of the series would not have been affected. It is also insane and short-sighted how they refused to recognize Mai’s character traits and how it conflicts with Zuko’s development…without being able to understand how badly they would clash in the future as a couple.
Bryke was also very disrespectful. They even went as far as to say Zutara never would have worked and that Zutarians are unable to
have healthy relationships. That was sick and twisted especially they displayed their lack of depth and maturity when it comes romance and
character dynamics. Many Zutarians are married or are in relationships.
They are both single…and honestly what kind of people make generalizations and prejudiced statements like that. I would say until the final few episodes where the plot holes exploded and character development was contradicted, we were in more accordance with many of their plot points and the characters evolution where many Kataangers/Maiko couldn’t understand or had a very shallow outlook.
It created such a backwards effect, closed-mindedness, and such extreme
intolerance. It was soul-sucking and mind-numbing dealing with the Kataangers/ Maikoans. The fact that Avatar created the most extensive and intensive fanon perspectives out of any show in American television history should have served as a sign. The romances and superficial resoultion of many plot points managed to undermine everything that
was deep, complex, mature, wonderful, and impressive about the show.
It was odd how a fanon pairing catered to what Avatar was about while the couples chosen only catered to shallowness, immaturity and hate.
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That was sick and twisted especially since they displayed their lack of depth and maturity when it comes to romance and character dynamics.
They promoted strictly-surface level thinking when it comes to character interaction and romantic relationships. I might have tolerated Kataang if they managed to convince us throughout the series that Katara was in love with Aang or that Mai had more layers and the capacity for empathy/
sociopolitical understanding/ compassionate concern and so many other necessary character traits they would have even made it plausible for her to have a functional, healthy, and well-balanced relationship with Zuko.
If you hear the DVD commentary from Bryke, you realize how Aang-centric and Kataang-centric it is. It is always from his POV. They say “Aww..
poor guy” when Katara rejects his kiss in DOBS without looking at it from Katara’s perspective. It was a spiritually arranged marriage where Katara had to quickly adjust her sisterly and platonic attitude into a romantic one.
That is sick and there were Oedipal overtones throughout the series. In fact, I think Katara grew out of Aang in the end, in a sense. Once she begans to interact more with people at her level, the level of friendship
she had with Aang would gradually decrease , especially with more
compatible personalities around. It would be the same case with Aang in return. There was always be a sentimental connection between the Gaang but if the show continued, it would be more natural for Sokka and Katara
to intensify their bond with personalities like Zuko. Her interaction with Aang was the least natural and the most warped. Aang was in love with the idea of being in love. It was also interesting how Aang had better chemistry with Toph, Sokka, and Zuko.
An important message that Kataang/Maiko failed to realize is that relationships change when life changes because people change. Maiko was
the worst consolation ship I have ever seen because they pair him off so Aang could have Katara with some sort of weak parallel of childhood sweethearts and incompatibility. Bryke hardly put any emphasis on discussing Maiko in their commentaries and they spin around the issues against Kataang while trying to impose ideas or concepts about that couple that do not ring true at all for people who deeply observed and analyzed everything and managed to draw insights.
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Maiko: One-sided apathy from female
Kataang: One-sided sympathy from female
Zutara: Extraordinary and Profound EMPATHY from both parties
This might seem like a frivolous point but it holds meaning when put into context with all of the other aspects of Zutara and Avatar. Maiko includes all of Mai’s name and it makes sense because Maiko revolves around what Mai wants, degrades Zuko, and the relationship is Mai-centric. Then you draw that semantic parallel to Kataang. Kataang has all of Aang’s name and is Aang-centric. Zutara makes good use of both of their identities. Mai showed no concern/deep understanding for Zuko’s passionate emotions and struggles while Katara’s identity gets lost in Aang’s wants and needs.
Avatar differs from other shipping phenomenons in the sense that I felt most of the fanon ships held more logic and compatibility than what was
wrongly chosen for canon. I personally felt Zutara held the highest plausibility and was the most fascinating. I agree that it touched on every aspect of Avatar…or every likable and respectable aspect of Avatar.
Zuko and Katara are two characters that will always hold a special place in my heart and memories. They are the first two animated figures that really made me feel and think on a complex level…in fact they are the only
cartoon characters that made me confront my inner demons. Zuko and Katara’s arc both as individuals and as a duo ( friendship in canon, love
in fanon) was cathartic for many people. As far as Kataang/Maiko, I felt
like I needed therapy after attempting to debate or have an intelligent
conversations with them. It is hard when they lash out at you right from the beginning. It is sad that it almost always had to escalate into raging arguments instead of civilized debates. Where do they get off, claiming the ship made no sense at all? Yeah, that is why half of the fanbase shipped it!
(sarcastic). They were very quick to hit below the belt.
I was a polyshipper. Zutara was my favorite but I also liked Toko,
Tokka, Tysokka, TyZuko, Taang, Teo and Onji, George ( Sokka & Suki), Zujin, Zong, Zukaang, Tymai, and Jet/Mai. Most of the other fanon ships had some plausbility where there was a potential for future romance or current romance from a canon narrative. The only crack pairings were ones that were way out of left field that held very little basis for compatibilty:
Zuko and Azula ( gross), Aang and Azula, Sokka and Azula, Katara and
Azula, Toph and Azula, Aang and Mai, and I am sure there are more character combos. Though even the crack shippers don’t take it seriously and they do it out of fun or to serve fantasies. I felt like even they should not have been abused and had the freedom to write fanfiction or come up with art. Kataang/Maiko were fanatically polarized and inspired the worst form of loathing towards all other ships. I consider Maiko to be a crack ship
because you are dealing with a relationship that lacked even a basic mode for compatibility at the end of the series and would never last unless Mai’s
character changes drastically.
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Whoever posted that article, clearly does not understand where we are coming from. We summarized our basic points in-depth and REPEATEDLY.
Re-read our posts before you pass that kind of condescending judgement.
Try to understand WHY we chose to ship, WHY we became upset, and the reasons where many felt it underminded the soul of the story. It was not just about romance but the character development and the psychological aspects. You clearly have blinders on because of your biases, don’t impose that on other people.
I know my friends have moved on from this and won’t continue debates
on this page. It is those kind of manipulative posts that try make us feel that we are out of line, out of control, delusional, or irrational that unfairly degrade viewers that spark aggression. For the peace of many, just quit
with this kind of response. All of those posts were to prevent these kind of responses that many were tortured with but were denied the capacity to properly react. The elements of shipping in this case incorporated almost
every aspect of the series. It is very rational and logical but you refuse to see it. Words cannot express how wrong and insulting it is for you to imply that shipping distorted our perception of the story because many did not come into this viewpoint for the context of shipping, it naturally developed
that way because what was chosen for canon did not flow naturally and did not make the best sense. People have explained that over and over again. It is because we connected to the characters so deeply and formed a profound understanding…that is where the shipping came from. There are many layers to it but I will not engage in a redundant explanation on everything because you will just blindly disagree and maintain that Bryke made the right choice about everything.
We focused on venting about the shipping and the mistreatment of the Canon Nazi’s in this particular entry but the people who analyzed Avatar from a perspective that involves psychology, critical thinking, and utilizes
the symbolism, themes, and character developement were dissatisifed and
disturbed with many plot holes, inconsistencies, and weak development in many areas. You don’t understand the nature of this beast, it is not about pettiness or rivalry. I discussed how I was not a shipper. I generally don’t ship. What made me ship this time, was the enormous flaws in the story that could not be tolerated and the abuse from the people who had a blind loyalty to it and thought it was wrong to disagree. Throwing some trope at us to attempt to make us feel foolish or stupid is not going to work. It will just open up more wounds. Please stop with that. We said our piece and leave us in peace.
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For the love of God, it was rooted in the realities of the story and characters and what would naturally develop for them, and also for the politics that was set up in that society. It was not about indulging a fantasy and we were not the ones who deviated from the essence of the story. The ill will towards critical thinking and rejecting the reasons for it also created the ire. The choices that were made created that weird limbo, disconnect, cognitive dissonance, and split paradox of perspective is what resulted in such intensive shipping and criticisms. I guess the reasoning behind it doesn’t matter to you because you refuse to see what the issues
are and chose to like everything that was handed to you. I won’t be bullied into taking an obescient mentality. It was an attitude and perspective that came from Avatar and not from the need to ship. I’m emotionally and spiritually exhausted from this kind of arguing. You post that article treating the many reasons and points that were summarized…
in fact, there is many more that could be mentioned and elaborated on further…and act like they have no merit when it has deep merit.
Just leave us alone. No discussion or explanation will come through to you.
It was a viewpoint that came from the story on an intelligent, intuitive,
and introspective level that incoporated spirituality and logical personality assessment. It was not some fabricated perspective or irrational attitude for the sake of shipping. It worked the other way around, the story and characters led us to ship and the many problems provoked criticisms. You need to open your mind and not be blind to groupthink. It can be destructive and unhealthy to always agree with the creator and writer.
This was a good page and a few Zutarians dared to post. It would be nice if you could just leave it alone or the debates will rage on. That article was offensive on many levels and just blindly underminded every intelligent comment. That trope that you flung at us does not apply because we supported what would have flown naturally with the story, we did not disrespect or degrade the characters or deviate from the core values. You
will never understand where we come from and I can’t even debate with somebody who refuses to recognize the flaws and reasoning behind why half of the audience won’t accept what was shallowly presented when there was such great development in the beginning and enormous potential. The romances were just part of the problem, it was just a part of the perspective. There were a lot issues and non-shipping related criticisms. There was a divide between the critical thinkers and the blind loyalists. Let this page rest in peace.
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We did not agree with the creators because we felt the choices that were made were NOT logical, mature, intelligent, and naturally cohesive with the story. It was not shipping or disagreeing for the sake of it. There is a complex basis but you refuse to see it. I haven’t witnessed any other creator create such a stigma against analysis and mature interpretation.
The public also has that right. Hopefully, there will be no need for more responses on this page. Goodbye.
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It was NOT just about one character or about a pairing. There was so much more to it. The perspective was not rooted in the pairing of two characters…it came from recognizing the issues and plot holes and what would have suited Avatar better. This will be my final post.
If you want a better comprehension of the critical thinking viewpoint on Avatar that requires logical analysis that discusses it in detail, visit this page: The Cake was a lie, ATLA Venting Community. Type that keyword and you will find that page.
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http://community.livejournal.com/thecakewasalie
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The person who displayed that article is the one who is engaging in postignorism. You are the one making generalizations, it is a complex viewpoint and only a few facets were touched upon. It was far more detailed than most of the other kinds of comments, and these were just conceptual summaries. There was an emphasis put on Zuko and Zutara in these specific posts because those two subjects were the ones that caused the most ignorance and ill will but the critcisms go far beyond shipping. The emotional and basic points that were touched upon were reactive responses; responding to the essence of many Kataang/Maikoan posts and what they reflected. Shipping was a side effect to how people responded with problems from the show. This perspective’s foundation is not based on shipping, one character, or a pairing. There are many layers and angles. The root of it is personality and progression of character but no reason stated will have any justification for people like you. No sense in beating a dead horse. You can write an essay with many details from the show that support what you dismiss generalizations. It would take a novel.
What was so upsetting is after all the reasons stated, you still treated those posts as if it were just baseless whining about shipping when they were legitimate complaints just briefly touched upon.
Your comment about post-ignorism was a mockery and you are intensifying
the oppression of people who dared to critique the material. There is a
rationale behind every reason. I know Melinda wanted no more comments
but I had to respond to that piece. I am also hoping there will be no more
need for debates because I don’t think this is the right place for that. People won’t shut up about dangling plot threads or speaking out on what is wrong. It detracted greatly from the entire series. I do understand this worship and sycophantism towards Bryke. There were enough issues and discrepancies that could not be overlooked because they were important to what the story was about. For the record, my outlook on analyzing Avatar began as objective, I was not seeking Zutara. Not every complaint
for every episode was based on wanting Zutara to happen, it was after viewing everything in context with all of the other issues that the pairings
were partially responsible for, did I want Zutara to happen. In fact, I would rather have Zuko and Katara end up alone at the end of the series than end up with Mai and Aang. We already listed many points. What Touchstone said earlier, would apply here. You are stripping the truth, depth, value, and credibility to what was said. There were greater issues
that were more important than the pairings like the ex deux machina, stagnancy and short-sightedness of the lead, hypocrisy and contradiction,
but shipping relates to that because character and story development that people became invested in was destroyed or underminded.
These posts that people like to label as aggressive or whatever were reactionary to how we were misportrayed and feedback to the ignorance, bullying, and misportrayals that we encountered on a large scale. Kataang/Maiko love to pretend it was all one-sided and are in such deep
denial about their behavior. The shipping ( couples that were wrongly chosen) screwed up the perspective on the series. It was part of a deeper
conflict. People explained that with such clarity and thought yet we still
are dealing with the same kind of ignorant response.
There are many sites. I am going to respect Melinda’s wishes and the wishes of the rest of the community by not extending the argument any further. Another page you should visit is Aang, the anti-avatar. Just type that keyword. Hopefully, this will be the final farewell.
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They really never are going to stop posting!
This is the most beautiful of all blog posts.
Wiping tears of joy over here.
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I do NOT understand this worship and sycophantism towards Bryke.
Final farewell.
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Sub, you are a worthless troll. Such “smart” snarks. People keep posting because people wanted to explain it in detail and then started posting again when they were provoked. I need to leave this page and warn others to avoid this place or they will go insane. BYE
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You are a bully of deep magnitude. Our comments about Avatar were not crazy, you are being crazy about your trolling and provoking. It is because of people like you who choose to mistreat, intelligent people who make logical statements, like they are crazy when everything they say makes sense. Nothing will get through to you, no amount of analysis will move your bias. F—you.
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It is because of people like you…that there is an aggressive and passionate reaction that won’t stop. You continue to be shallow and rotten, just blindly go along with what was wrong and spin around the issues. The intelligent fans will hold on to their opinions, analysis, and criticisms.
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I HAVE A SAD ANNOUNCEMENT TO MAKE, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
I, TOO, AM LEAVING THESE COMMENTS FOREVER
THEY FILL ME WITH TOO MUCH JOY AND LAUGHTER. THE OTHER DAYS OF THE YEAR ARE EMPTY BY COMPARISON.
WITH A HEAVY HEART, I TAKE MY LEAVE
(HAHA JUST KIDDING GUYS SEE YOU IN THREE MONTHS WHEN DANICA POSTS AGAIN <3)
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I don’t want to prolong this discussion too much but I just have to say it is good that people defended Zutara and the INTELLIGENT perspective of ATLA.
Zutarians, non-shippers, etc: DO NOT JOIN THE CAKE WAS A LIE. Danica, Melinda, etc, and everybody in that group asked me to annouce that the link that had been previously promoted should NOT be visited or supported because they are actually horribly abusing their own people. The moderator for that site is completely psychotic and unfair with severe hatred issues. People chose to unfairly harass and slander somebody there to the point of extreme ruthlessness. They bascially got degraded and then misportayed infront of an entire community for defending themselves against offensive behavior and tactics. There are a number of horrible personalities who are part of that community. They might seem civilized and intelligent at the surface but when you investigate more, you discover what kind of people they really are. It was very perverse and it made all Zutarians look very bad. Avoid that place because there are members of that community who are frankly scary,perverse, rotten to the core and it was uncalled for, what an intelligent person had to endure when she tried to be civilized in dealing with them.
I liked this analysis and perspective of ATLA too. I got hell for defending it or even acknowledging it from Maikoans/Kataangers. I think people should just let it go. The truth is that there are toxic people within all sides of the fandom. Unforunately, there are no good Zutara or analysis discussions of ATLA left. It is over and I’m warning the people who used to post here to just release this anger and frustration because ATLA is not worth it.
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I really think you’re all being WAAYYY too analytical, man.
It was a kids’ show. When they were writing this they were half on the ball, and half trying to meet deadlines.
Seriously. :/
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Great posts defending Zutara/Zuko. It is too bad some K/M’ers completely ruined most discussions about this by not letting people meta-criticize properly.
Any time I have tried to search the web for good discussions about this, I just end up running into bashing and websites being taken over by opposing shippers or trolls. It is good that people are engaging in analysis rather than accepting every plot hole or flaw.
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If anybody has any links to good Zutara or metacritic sites about ATLA, please share them here.
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Show me more.
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